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Post by dentarthurdent on Nov 25, 2023 14:24:46 GMT
Lestrade mentioned only nine deaths per bombing run, which is absurdly low. A sortie is one aircraft flying one mission. I whipped out my calculator and lo and behold, the higher number is 33 deaths per sortie! Still absurdly low, but also a Phunny number!
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Post by dentarthurdent on Nov 25, 2023 14:34:00 GMT
I had an uncle in the Army in WWII. He wrote a short memoir, in which he was a rear echelon guy in North Africa and Italy, conveniently seeing no real combat. So he fits in exactly with Lestrade’s “But my uncle…!” archetype.
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Post by erwin on Nov 27, 2023 19:13:36 GMT
The country I live in was german occupied territory 1940-1945. Around here was no front line, so just resistance-related stories. A while ago I looked in the main local resistance martyr story. It involved suspiciously privileged people, in ancestry and in post-war relocation and careers. The story itself is also over the top, as if the germans were aiming to be labelled as evil deceivers, for no particular benefit to them.
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Michael
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Post by Michael on Nov 28, 2023 12:12:58 GMT
I have one loss. I actually thought it was WW1 but it turns out it was WW2, it was little talked about that it seemed like ancient history. The loss was the sinking of HMS Hood in the Battle of Denmark Strait. It was my auntie's brother, it was never talked about my mam just told me about it a few years back, it seems unlikely that all 1,500 lost lads were recruits into naval intelligence. Take from that what you will. I suspect this is why the truth is hard to find because if these are real planned deaths then that reality is uncontemptibly horrible
I hadn't thought much about this until today, I can't even bring myself to have a critical read of the wiki on this one.
Sorry to be a downer, and sorry for rising it, as, in Britain, we are taught to not talk about these things - stiff upper lip and all that.
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Michael
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Post by Michael on Nov 28, 2023 12:43:16 GMT
Here something that I really didn't know, during WW2 Britain attacked France! They don't talk about that much. Attack on Mers-el-KébirThe attack on Mers-el-Kébir (Battle of Mers-el-Kébir) on 3 July 1940, during the Second World War, was a British naval attack on neutral[3] French Navy ships at the naval base at Mers El Kébir, near Oran, on the coast of French Algeria. The attack was the main part of Operation Catapult, a British plan to neutralise or destroy neutral French ships to prevent them from falling into German hands after the Allied defeat in the Battle of France. The British bombardment of the base killed 1,297 French servicemen, sank a battleship and damaged five other ships, for a British loss of five aircraft shot down and two crewmen killed. The attack by air and sea was conducted by the Royal Navy, after France had signed armistices with Germany and Italy, coming into effect on 25 June.
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Gerry
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Post by Gerry on Nov 28, 2023 20:02:20 GMT
Real people do die in wars. I think Lestrade with his reduced numbers is closer than Miles here, who just claims no one died, without any argument to it.
In my family, many men didn't come back from WW2. They were the evil German invaders, so there's no need to shed tears about them specifically. But I fear just as many in the invaded countries died too, if not more. And it's not all just soldiers fighting each other, real atrocities happen in wars too. Just the ones that make it into the history books may be fakes. Generally, there's always more civilians dying in wars.
That's also one reason I try to translate those old texts. In the Shabbath chapter, it says that it's okay to plough ahead with a war even if aristocrats die, as long as it's their own stupidity and they had it coming. And they say it's totally okay to kill commoners, even if it's just to train the army on them. Sure, that was 1000s of years ago, but I don't think too much has changed in that regard. And of course, I wouldn't believe just anything that I think I can read out of those texts. But in this case, it matches my perception of actual reality.
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Post by erwin on Nov 28, 2023 20:53:27 GMT
What Gerry wrote. Sounds reasonable. Some random thoughts:
Returning wounded would be far more visible. And in case of mine/leg incidents it should be obvious. As common during the Vietnam war.
I try to consider what the rulers think they may actually lose, which is not easily replaced. Supposedly in ancient times it was easier to rebuild, environmental pollution was much lower, raw material supply wasn't hitting limits. Then in the 20th century they have spectacular military assets, like steel battleships, huge industrial areas. At first these became obsolete quickly, now things last much longer. I can imagine they were in a transition then, coming from the habit to just destroy and rebuild to new specs, whilst also starting to consider this an undesirable waste.
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Michael
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Post by Michael on Nov 29, 2023 17:45:32 GMT
Gerry I am glad you said that, that makes more sense to me. I was getting a bit confused trying to hold Mile' view up to scrutiny. I take it as at least allegorically true i.e. taken in the whole they are fake because they are not as described, but I see no evidence that they would have any compunction over killing where necessary. It is all such a terrible waste. Yes, our Overlords have to play goodies and baddies, I think that most of the common people understand the tragic situation all the peoples faced. Though there are an awful lot that think they wouldn't have been sucked in and prove it by waring a face mask and supporting the destruction of Russia, or whatever the latest thing is. It must be a very bitter pill to be on the side that was designated as the loser before the game kicked off. And of course, I wouldn't believe just anything that I think I can read out of those texts. But in this case, it matches my perception of actual reality.. Yes, this, a thousand times this. I know perception can be played around with but i think most logical paths lead this way too.
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Michael
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Post by Michael on Nov 29, 2023 17:56:59 GMT
erwin Indeed. Injuries are often kept quite quiet, or within the family, no-one wants to ask people what happened to them so they just shuffle on by. I think the rulers know this, in fact I think it may be the reason for stoicism and the stiff upper lip. At the moment it is not needed, so it is all living your truth and letting your emotions out. Interesting approach, I have always thought more in terms of what they can gain. When you think about what they aren't willing to lose the most obvious one is their lives, no longer are they taking themselves into the firing line. I did used to think, as a naïve youth - why do they not target the leaders? Obviously, there are now a lot of good explanations why, but once you add the fact that they are in a "war theatre", of course, a few "extras" can be killed, and at a push they could sacrifice a "star" but never the "producers" and "directors."
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Michael
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Post by Michael on Nov 29, 2023 18:00:34 GMT
erwin And, yes, the HMS Hood was an old ship and the Russian flagship that went down, was it last year, was a relic. So, yeah, they are often not losing anything they they cherish and are able to fund a whole new project.
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Post by erwin on Nov 29, 2023 19:32:34 GMT
erwin Indeed. Injuries are often kept quite quiet, or within the family, no-one wants to ask people what happened to them so they just shuffle on by. I think the rulers know this, in fact I think it may be the reason for stoicism and the stiff upper lip. At the moment it is not needed, so it is all living your truth and letting your emotions out. I meant it more like, if one wants verification of actual war casualties, one could look into these Vietnam War disabled veterans. Look for numbers and names and photos. See how much of it checks out. These disabled persons were not buried under the ground or cremated, they were still around. And I don't think they got paid enough to voluntary lose that leg, neither enough to pretend to have lost a leg for the rest of their lives. I can tell you though, there will also be anomalies, as I found this strange thing some time ago: We have these impossible heroic acts by US marines, as mentioned by Lestrade in his papers. On of the most famous from the WW2 pacific theatre was US Marine Chesty Puller, one of Edson's men . "Most decorated Marine". "Far cousin of General Patton". "descended from colonel Lewis Burwell" If you look up Chesty's children there is his son Lewis Burwell Puller Jr. (II). Now that son appeared in the media as the example of Vietnam War disabled veterans. Seemingly has lost his legs and some fingers (or never had them?). Wins pullitzer prize. Is on stage with Bill Clinton, see photo. Involved with support foundations for veterans. Commits Suicide. Now what is left is this website named for his politician wife Linda T. Toddy Puller: "www.toddy.org" It is about loans for veterans. (By the way: Edson is also known as "Edison", postwar executive director of the National Rifle Association, and is told to have committed suicide at age 55. / Lewis has a son that is a professional golfer: Lewis Puller III )
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Post by erwin on Nov 29, 2023 20:04:32 GMT
erwin And, yes, the HMS Hood was an old ship and the Russian flagship that went down, was it last year, was a relic. So, yeah, they are often not losing anything they they cherish and are able to fund a whole new project. You made me wonder about that Moskva ship. If it was still of value. Also whether or not the wreck could easily be recovered for scrap-steel. Supposedly not. Snippets below: Russian Missile Cruiser "Slava"/"Moskva" was commissioned in 1983. Oldest of three of the class. Lacking upgraded radar, the radar system was old. A similar missile attack was attempted on this ship 10 months earlier, but failed. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_the_Moskva"The sinking of Moskva came two days after Ukrposhta released one million "Russian warship, go fuck yourself" stamps, which show a soldier giving the finger to Moskva. " "A Ukraine-based publication[108] and two defense analysts[109] wrote in the aftermath that Moskva had the capability to carry nuclear warheads and that she may have been carrying two nuclear warheads at the time of her sinking." "Ukraine declared the wreck of Moskva as having "underwater cultural heritage". It is being advertised as a dive wreck as it is only 130 km off the coast from Odesa and the water is only 45–50 metres deep. The wreck "can be admired without much diving".[68][111]" "Due to the size of Moskva and that she sank in one piece, bringing her to the surface is thought to be impractical" Edit: It appears there are just two photos of the burning Moskva. But there is a video too!....a 2-second wobbly one. One of the photos is useless, so that leaves only 1 okayish photo, but even that is of poor sharpness and has obvious jpeg image compression losses. Navy photography strikes again. Better luck next time. www.today.it/attualita/moskva-che-affonda-video-foto.html
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Michael
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Post by Michael on Dec 1, 2023 17:50:29 GMT
@wewin
I do like to make people wonder. It would seem (if it is down there, which is probably a 50/50 as at some point it will be dived by divers, though it is still a good sail out, so that may be a red herring) then, I assume, the propaganda value was considered more than the scrap value. One thing that the P Navy are good at is cost benefit analysis.
I no nothing about sea salvage but can't they cut up the ship underwater and float the pieces up in a reclamation? After all they say they can put a man on the moon.
You are very right about the navy photography, I suppose we will have to wait for the painting to dry. They do like leaving Easter eggs for the more adept non-observant to chase down the hil.
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Michael
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Post by Michael on Dec 1, 2023 18:20:57 GMT
erwin Indeed. Injuries are often kept quite quiet, or within the family, no-one wants to ask people what happened to them so they just shuffle on by. I think the rulers know this, in fact I think it may be the reason for stoicism and the stiff upper lip. At the moment it is not needed, so it is all living your truth and letting your emotions out. I meant it more like, if one wants verification of actual war casualties, one could look into these Vietnam War disabled veterans. Look for numbers and names and photos. See how much of it checks out. These disabled persons were not buried under the ground or cremated, they were still around. And I don't think they got paid enough to voluntary lose that leg, neither enough to pretend to have lost a leg for the rest of their lives. I can tell you though, there will also be anomalies, as I found this strange thing some time ago: We have these impossible heroic acts by US marines, as mentioned by Lestrade in his papers. On of the most famous from the WW2 pacific theatre was US Marine Chesty Puller, one of Edson's men . "Most decorated Marine". "Far cousin of General Patton". "descended from colonel Lewis Burwell" If you look up Chesty's children there is his son Lewis Burwell Puller Jr. (II). Now that son appeared in the media as the example of Vietnam War disabled veterans. Seemingly has lost his legs and some fingers (or never had them?). Wins pullitzer prize. Is on stage with Bill Clinton, see photo. Involved with support foundations for veterans. Commits Suicide. Now what is left is this website named for his politician wife Linda T. Toddy Puller: "www.toddy.org" It is about loans for veterans. You would need an independent, honest researcher who could get there work published and able to repel the smears. In order to get walking wounded., my guess is they take people that were injured in accidents and in particular criminal activity and pay them to lie and say they did it in Nam, it is a win win. I used to live on the next street to a guy who had his leg blown off in the 7/7 attack. He was on the news as a victim, petitioning for more compensation for victims. The news said he worked for a leading advertising agency. It later came to our attention that he was a convicted rapist where he kidnapped his victim and held her at knife point over night in a lock up garage. Now all or any of this may (looking back be fake) but if only part is true it would give him a reason to want a sob story and he could have easily lost his leg in some other criminal activity. The last bit is pure speculation of course. But do you really think top end advertising agencies recruit convicted kidnapping rapists? At least they resisted calling him Leggy PUller
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Post by erwin on Feb 9, 2024 19:19:14 GMT
Russian Missile Cruiser "Slava"/"Moskva" was commissioned in 1983. Oldest of three of the class. Lacking upgraded radar, the radar system was old. A similar missile attack was attempted on this ship 10 months earlier, but failed. I came across this 2017 book from osprey: Soviet Cold War Guided Missile Cruisers. It says that the whole design of the Slava Class was questionable, because it was fitted with dated equipment when construction began. As in, the Soviets had better systems available, but decided not to use it on these ships. Also the production of these ships was low priority and slow, compared to their other types. AFAIK the whole Soviet cold war Navy was in bad shape for most of the cold war, both in quality and quantity, as compared to the US Navy. Then it picked up a bit in the late 70's and 80's only to crash again in 1989. The end of the Soviet Union caused a severe lack of funds for maintenance. Regardless, there was the Russian experimental aircraft carrier project in the 90's, but again too little too late for anything real, but good enough for stories. It supposedly did something around Syria in 2016. The Chinese got a specimen of such a carrier, for shows. One could say: but the Soviets instead focused on submarines with nuclear missiles. Sure.
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